tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post7562958512016916363..comments2023-11-02T07:06:44.484-07:00Comments on LAZY EYE THEATRE: TOERIFC: If...PIPERhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13054305230216613759noreply@blogger.comBlogger127125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post-15248258210729495802009-09-28T17:48:08.107-07:002009-09-28T17:48:08.107-07:00Just getting in here. Sorry. Should have posted ea...Just getting in here. Sorry. Should have posted earlier.<br /><br />Love your take on the film, specifically your pointing out the fact that the three heroes don't actually do anything to merit punishment. "It's you general attitude," they're told. This implies the Upper Classmen are virually reading their minds. And this would be appropriate for fantasy. Fo <i>If. . .</i> from start to finish is a fantasy of Anderson's recollection of his school days.<br /><br />I felt the ending was indeed troumphant because of that. The fantasy has played its course and it has no where else to go. It simply ends.<br /><br />The film's appearance was simultaneous with May '68 so it's pure unadulterated <i>zeitgeist</i>. <br /><br />As a gay man I cannot begin to tell you how important this film was for me back when representations of same-sex desire were scarcer than he's teeth.<br /><br />I got a chance to tell Lindsay Anerson himself how much I appreciated the film when I met him at <br /><br />(wait for it)<br /><br />the cast and crew screening of <i>My Own Private Idaho</i>. Gavin Lambert brought him. He was most appreciative.<br /><br />Then Keanu Reeves came swanning by and he was off in hot pursuit. <br /><br />Gus loves Anderson's work-- especially the slo-mo in the gym scene.DavidEhrensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11016905507543736049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post-1254000498579397452009-09-16T09:38:57.810-07:002009-09-16T09:38:57.810-07:00I raided your fridge while you were gone but Bill ...I raided your fridge while you were gone but Bill and Ed were the guys who messed up the bathroom. They kept trying to see what would flush and what wouldn't. I tried to tell them a brick wouldn't but they wouldn't listen.Greghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05730146625671701859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post-69900666857616406992009-09-16T06:27:35.320-07:002009-09-16T06:27:35.320-07:00Don't sweat it Bill.
If this were a book club...Don't sweat it Bill.<br /><br />If this were a book club hosted at my house, I in effect got up from the conversation, left my house and the state while you guys continued to go about your way. I didn't even say, hey lock up on your way out.PIPERhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13054305230216613759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post-34118909337745436792009-09-16T06:20:20.552-07:002009-09-16T06:20:20.552-07:00I'm sorry that I more or less missed out on th...I'm sorry that I more or less missed out on this one. I feel like a bad film-clubber...bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post-12136033260286830902009-09-15T11:03:49.996-07:002009-09-15T11:03:49.996-07:00Pat and Joseph, I need to see that scene again. To...Pat and Joseph, I need to see that scene again. To me, that runs counter to what I thought the ending was about. I guess it's still fantasy and especially fantasy if he explodes.<br /><br />One other thing that I think is worth mentioning is the character of Mrs. Kemp. Again, just a footnote not unlike Jute, but the three scenes she is in are great scenes. The first, where she is sitting among the boys during dinner and the sexual tension is so good. The second is when she's serving lunch and she shouts at the boys. Almost like it's a release of her sexual tension. And then there's the wonderful scene of her walking through the boys bathroom naked, touching all the towels, while the boys are out performing drills.PIPERhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13054305230216613759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post-15309484256201231022009-09-15T05:45:30.878-07:002009-09-15T05:45:30.878-07:00Like Joseph, I had the impression that the headmas...Like Joseph, I had the impression that the headmaster exploded in that final scene. I watched it twice to comfirm what I thought I'd seen. It looked as though all that remained of him was a black spot on the ground.Patricia Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15394997608325540950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post-54531719371110812552009-09-14T21:59:52.997-07:002009-09-14T21:59:52.997-07:00Greg,
To you and everyone I apologize for being g...Greg,<br /><br />To you and everyone I apologize for being gone most of the day. Some unexpected work kept me away and I was quickly sent out of town on business. And I know that I'm the wind beneath everyone's wings, so I'm not surprised that participation has fallen without me around.<br /><br />I'm up for more discussion tomorrow. <br /><br />Joseph,<br /><br />I need to watch the ending again, because for the life of me I don't know of anyone exploding. I thought the point of the ending was to show no violence because it was so cartoony and strictly a fantasy.PIPERhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13054305230216613759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post-2368562648643558562009-09-14T17:25:16.891-07:002009-09-14T17:25:16.891-07:00Ed, there should be plenty more to say but Pat hor...Ed, there should be plenty more to say but Pat horrendously dropped the ball by disappearing as the host for most of the day which is why he will never get another job in this town again. Don't forget Piper - You've been blackballed.<br /><br />Also, he missed the obvious pun in his headline. It should have been "TOER if.... C". Duh. Nice miss Piper.<br /><br />Anyway, and seriously now, I want to thank Pat for a great analysis of this film and for hosting despite an apparently busy work day. <br /><br />Now, to the movie. I found the homoerotic scene in the gym quite well done and tender which was a bit surprising because the other homoerotic scenes had a sinister quality to them. It's kind of hard to make a film at an all boys school without homoeroticism and it seems an easy way, especially in 1968, to use it as a quick signal that the characters are evil. That's changed now but then it was a pretty easy signal to use. Gays were either comic relief or shady, so the inclusion of that scene was quite nice and keeps the movie from feeling dated along social equality lines.Greghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05730146625671701859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post-25482843935880770162009-09-14T16:22:03.215-07:002009-09-14T16:22:03.215-07:00Ed-
I think, in regards to your second point, I ...Ed- <br /><br />I think, in regards to your second point, I was trying to say with my first post. But less successfully then you.<br /><br />The ending is a total metaphor. I would have been disturbed if it were shot realistically, because of course, no matter how stuffy somebody is, I don't wish to see them gunned down and blown up. But the comedy that runs through that gunfight, namely the old lady wielding the machine gun, and the head master exploding after being shot, lets me see it as a new vs. old metaphor. The old school will always be fighting with the new school, and it will continue until the end of time. <br /><br />Also, the film ends in mid fight, showing us no resolution....JOSEPH CAMPANELLAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18432551762553721818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post-87010640320466443082009-09-14T16:19:16.041-07:002009-09-14T16:19:16.041-07:00Ed,
There are certainly more things to discuss. I...Ed,<br /><br />There are certainly more things to discuss. I'm sorry I have been out. I was traveling this afternoon. Just got into my hotel and now I'm off to have dinner. But those are 2 very good points. I will come back to this this evening.PIPERhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13054305230216613759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post-22206292039284717672009-09-14T14:35:19.958-07:002009-09-14T14:35:19.958-07:00What, everyone's run out of things to say abou...What, everyone's run out of things to say about this film already? I find that hard to believe. Two things I want to point out:<br /><br />1) I'm surprised more people, other than Piper himself, haven't commented on that stunning scene where the young pretty boy Phillips watches Wallace's gymnastics routine. It plays out in slo-mo black and white, with such sensuality and grace, with real feeling behind it: a moment of surprising romance, even, in a film that's generally more interested in other things. I wonder what everyone makes of that. Piper mentioned Van Sant in connection with the now-inescapable Colombine associations, but for me that gymnastics scene is the one that makes me think Van Sant is a fan of this film: it's an obvious inspiration for his own poetically homoerotic images.<br /><br />2) One absurd element in the film's finale, which speaks to its status as metaphor and symbol rather than concrete reality, is the presence of various cartoonishly exaggerated "authority" figures amongst the crowds being gunned down by Mick and his pals. I mean, these rebels are facing off against bishops, generals, bourgeois ladies in furs and even actual knights in armor: it's like an editorial cartoon rather than anything approximating reality, all that's missing is the labels for what the symbols represent. The finale shows the unorganized rebels facing off against Religion and the Military and the Bourgeois; fighting concepts rather than people.Ed Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18014222247676090467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post-4194802582490209922009-09-14T12:39:02.604-07:002009-09-14T12:39:02.604-07:00Fox, I always wanted to make-out with a skater chi...Fox, I always wanted to make-out with a skater chick, but never got the chance. Was it rough, like I always imagined it would be?PIPERhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13054305230216613759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post-62957985038839515092009-09-14T12:35:49.326-07:002009-09-14T12:35:49.326-07:00Going way way back, you're absolutely right. K...<i>Going way way back, you're absolutely right. Kids can certainly straddle the different social circles. I certainly did and like you, I ended up in the theater group as well. I even lettered in Drama. That's right, I said it. But I fear that you and I might be exceptions.</i>...<br /><br />I used to play baseball, make-out with skater chicks, and breakdance on some cardboard next to the gym, and look where I ended up... film blogging. (sigh).<br /><br />Also, I knew this couldn't be a reference since it was made prior, but I couldn't help but think of Patty Hearst when The Girl is all suited up in her battle gear at the end alongside the other "rooftop revolutionaries".Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08067136509248849744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post-90930916408814948062009-09-14T12:02:40.770-07:002009-09-14T12:02:40.770-07:00Joseph,
Thanks for joining. Like you said, I like...Joseph,<br /><br />Thanks for joining. Like you said, I like that the impending doom wasn't so doom-like. It may be me chickening-out. It may be Anderson chickening-out. But the fact that the climax is handled like it is, certainly reinforces the title of the film. I like that it's treated in a hypothetical manner.<br /><br />Marilyn,<br /><br />Going way way back, you're absolutely right. Kids can certainly straddle the different social circles. I certainly did and like you, I ended up in the theater group as well. I even lettered in Drama. That's right, I said it. But I fear that you and I might be exceptions.PIPERhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13054305230216613759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post-87717353606453546802009-09-14T11:51:45.106-07:002009-09-14T11:51:45.106-07:00Great write up Piper. I really enjoyed this film. ...Great write up Piper. I really enjoyed this film. Although I've never been into the counter culture of the 1960's, I feel this picture handled the subject in a different way.<br /><br />The fact that this film came out before the great, yet overrated EASY RIDER is even more of a shock. <br /><br />I haven't read through all the comments yet, because I wanted to throw my hat in the ring ASAP. <br /><br />As the ending approached and the impending doom began to grow, I must say that I was quite uneasy about it. It did remind me of a Columbine type massacre. Yet, the way it is handled, with its surreal nature and humor (namely the old lady wearing pearls and a hat wielding a machine gun) I believe it has side stepped the obvious scapegoating that it could have suffered. "This film could bring children to violence..." <br /><br />What the ending symbolizes, with its back and forth gunfire is that tradition and innovation will always be at war with each other and the fighting will never stop.<br /><br />P.S. Not including the poem, you used the word "if" 19 times.... EXTRA CREDIT!JOSEPH CAMPANELLAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18432551762553721818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post-35295625545533159042009-09-14T11:30:28.364-07:002009-09-14T11:30:28.364-07:00Everyone,
I'm sorry I've been out of this...Everyone,<br /><br />I'm sorry I've been out of this. Work has blown up quite a bit and I must tend to that. Talk amongst yourselves.PIPERhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13054305230216613759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post-39035204403104637222009-09-14T10:43:54.694-07:002009-09-14T10:43:54.694-07:00You could just as easily say that the African rhyt...<i>You could just as easily say that the African rhythms were diluting the British religion as the other way around. Given the times, England could no longer remain a cultural island.</i><br /><br />Marilyn, that is very true. I just don't think Anderson is that subtle.Rick Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846018585978997261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post-24923245502854391012009-09-14T10:40:59.356-07:002009-09-14T10:40:59.356-07:00Ed, I love South African vocal music, of the kind ...Ed, I love South African vocal music, of the kind showcased by Paul Simon in "Graceland" Ladysmith Black Mombazo is the group he worked with, and is the most well-known of that bunch.<br /><br />Interestingly, their music is very religious.Rick Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846018585978997261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post-79831933140162256512009-09-14T10:39:13.773-07:002009-09-14T10:39:13.773-07:00Pat, I don't literally mean the hymns used in ...Pat, I don't literally mean the hymns used in "if..." "Jerusalem" is practically the stock song for movies of this type, and I think Anderson may have been deliberately trying to subvert that tradition, moving locus of the insular public school system to a wider world.<br /><br />You could just as easily say that the African rhythms were diluting the British religion as the other way around. Given the times, England could no longer remain a cultural island.Marilynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15730000155687661753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post-39742704951566106832009-09-14T10:35:59.371-07:002009-09-14T10:35:59.371-07:00Rick -
Fair point, just not something that occurr...Rick -<br /><br />Fair point, just not something that occurred to me as I watching/listening. As I said, it reflect my own reaction to the music more than anything else.Patricia Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15394997608325540950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post-59045030896770118882009-09-14T10:33:53.548-07:002009-09-14T10:33:53.548-07:00Ed, you're right: it is Sanctus. Sorry 'b...Ed, you're right: it is <i>Sanctus</i>. Sorry 'bout that.Rick Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846018585978997261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post-73244574075309720942009-09-14T10:32:24.690-07:002009-09-14T10:32:24.690-07:00Marilyn,
I'm familiar with "Jersualem,&q...Marilyn,<br /><br />I'm familiar with "Jersualem," but I thought there was a more direct contrast between the song McDowell listens to and the traditional hymn that is actually played over and over in the film (and I should know the name of that traditional hymn since we've sung it over and over in my church, but it escapes me right now.)Patricia Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15394997608325540950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post-41654556043768064342009-09-14T10:32:07.104-07:002009-09-14T10:32:07.104-07:00is the song actually saying that Mick thinks he...<i>is the song actually saying that Mick thinks he's a radical but in the end he will end up conforming?</i><br /><br />Yup. Or it is irony that he is one of the oppressors who dreams of rebelling against the oppression ...Rick Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846018585978997261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post-10310279097381152822009-09-14T10:31:56.690-07:002009-09-14T10:31:56.690-07:00About the song. Wasn't it "Sanctus,"...About the song. Wasn't it "Sanctus," not "Dominus?" If I'm not mistaken, I thought it was the same traditional Latin hymn that was treated to an unconventional arrangement by Ernst Reijseger, working with a Sardinian choir and an African vocalist, for Werner Herzog's <i>Wild Blue Yonder</i>. (And now I wonder if that soundtrack, one of the best I've ever heard, is indebted to Anderson's use of the African "Sanctus" here.)<br /><br />The use of it in <i>If....</i> is interesting, in that for Mick it represents a genuine emotional experience, and yet Rick is right that what the song is actually representative of is the colonial conquest of Africa, melding African rhythms with Western religion, and thus diluting African culture. At the same time, it's such purely beautiful music -- much more beautiful than most actual Western religious music, which I usually find rather numbing -- that it's hard to think of it as at all oppressive. It reminds me of the spiritual, Christian choir music I've heard from the Caribbean. There's such joy and energy in this music. I'm not a religious man at all, but that music, like the Africanized version of "Sanctus" here and Reijseger's Herzog soundtrack, brings me closer to spirituality than anything else I've experienced.Ed Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18014222247676090467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-907928872183762741.post-59650785884591306002009-09-14T10:30:27.963-07:002009-09-14T10:30:27.963-07:00I don't immediately think of oppression and do...<i>I don't immediately think of oppression and domination every time I hear a Latin hymn, whether it's in an Afticanized arrangement or a traitional one.</i><br /><br />Neither do I ... I've sang plenty of them, too. Nor do I see anything "sinister" in it, just another piece of the puzzle of what Anderson is getting at, that's all. (Indeed, it does mean God, and indeed the root is the word for dominance. Again, the Anglican Church's use of God to dominate it's charges in the school, that ridiculous sermon about Christ being the commander).<br /><br />A well known thing about foreign missions is that they are arms of the dominant culture ...Rick Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846018585978997261noreply@blogger.com